Can A Landlord Charge For Cleaning Costs?

ilovetrouble [OP]: Jr. Member; Jan 24, 2007; 136 posts; 31 upvotes; Toronto

Feb 1st, 2016 12:59 pm

Landlord Charging for Cleaning. Legal?

I recently moved out of a condo rental unit of measurement.

I cleaned the entire place myself... including swiffering the floors, using laminate floor cleaner and mopping, repairing any pocket-size blast marks in walls (and painting over them), cleaning all bathrooms including toilet, sink and showers, fridge, inside of cupboards, stove etc. From an outside view, it was pretty clean.

The landlord went through the property today with a fine tooth come and has come up dorsum saying that I left a corner of 1 room in the two bedroom with some dust/dirt (a section no bigger than 6x6), that the stove elements are not to his standard of clean. He besides highlighted the inside side fridge shelves every bit beingness muddy (I wiped them, but did not admittedly scrub them). Lastly, he says I left a stain in one of the kitchen cupboards.

They want to accuse me $150 to clean the apartment, which is ridiculous considering it's like 4 things, and I never signed anything saying I would professionally clean the apartment. I agreed to normal wear and tear.

"The landlord agrees to professionally paint and clean the premises prior to occupancy. The tenant shall leave the identify in the same condition of neatness and cleanliness at decease of lease as time of occupancy save for normal article of clothing and tear. Otherwise a cleaning accuse of $150 shall exist payable by the tenant".

I just moved into a new place which the landlord 'cleaned' prior to taking possession. It was sort of clean, I had to go through it once more to clean the cupboards, fridge and bath b/c it wasn't to my standards but I certainly didn't charge my landlord for information technology.

How does one define "normal wear and tear"? The Ontario tenants law is quite vague. What are my rights in this case?

I feel like they are simply trying to get me to pay for an expense that a landlord should pay for.

I also should mention this flat rent was $2k a calendar month. The last calendar month they were showing it to new renters every day, several times a day for 30+ days. I had 5-6 showings walk in unannounced without notice from the landlord, and plus they caused harm to my personal belongings (one broke a piece of furniture that volition toll ~$100 to replace). So, I'yard already not happy with this situation.

I believe the landlord should clean anyway in between tenants, and I'one thousand not responsible for that price.

TIA!

Feb 1st, 2016 1:09 pm

arkroyal: Bargain Addict; April 19, 2014; 1042 posts; 991 upvotes

February 1st, 2016 1:09 pm

It's amateur landlord hour hither on RFD apparently. At that place must exist a lot of struggling landlords out there to pull this kind of crap.

I'd tell the landlord you left it in the same condition you got it. They can go pound sand. There is zilch they can practice to collect their $150.

Feb 1st, 2016 one:16 pm

ilovetrouble [OP]: Jr. Fellow member; Jan 24, 2007; 136 posts; 31 upvotes; Toronto

Feb 1st, 2016 ane:16 pm

Thanks arkroyal

He replied to me and said "...I did not suggest that it will price 150 but the apartment needs to be cleaned. Simply wiping the floors and appliances apace volition non do. "

I'm definitely burning a rental reference on this one, but I'm non paying for this! Thanks for the back up

February 1st, 2016 1:20 pm

#four

rob444: Deal Aficionado; Jan ii, 2012; 4194 posts; 2160 upvotes; Toronto

February 1st, 2016 1:20 pm

He's fishing and hoping you just pay.

He can take you to courtroom if he really wants to pursue damages. Most sane people wouldn't bother over $150.

Feb 1st, 2016 i:40 pm

licenced: Deal Fanatic; Jul 3, 2011; 6500 posts; 3738 upvotes; Thornhill

February 1st, 2016 1:twoscore pm

If you don't already have what he says needs to be done in writing, you could send him an email listing all the things you've done and inquire him to list the things he believes were not done.

Once you accept that list you tin cull to dispute his claim. The cleaning charge on the charter is unenforceable so he would take to pursue it via the court if you've already moved out. You're only responsible for leaving it in an ordinary state of cleanliness which is based on what a reasonable person would presume it to be. If he tries the court route he'll probable make it appear worse than he described in the email which y'all of course can them produce.

February 1st, 2016 1:42 pm

ilovetrouble [OP]: Jr. Member; Jan 24, 2007; 136 posts; 31 upvotes; Toronto

February 1st, 2016 1:42 pm

Oh he'southward definitely bothering. He's sent me a total of 20 photos this morning via text including pictures of pocket-sized crumbs in a kitchen drawer, and a smudge of handsoap I must've accidentally dropped in the second bathroom sink when I washed my hands afterward cleaning the whole apartment on Friday.

He describes the current state every bit "quite bad" and is too manipulating my words. I mentioned my cleaning lady hasn't been in all calendar month b/c of the showings (I have a cat, and the cleaning lady is terrified of her unless she is locked upwardly).

However, I cleaned the flat fully on Friday. He's saying that information technology'southward non clean because a professional didn't do it. No where in the lease does it say a professional has to clean the apartment. They are lucky I had a cleaning lady at all for the past two years.

This makes me re-think moving into rentals, and documenting EVERYTHING!

Feb 1st, 2016 1:43 pm

#seven

ilovetrouble [OP]: Jr. Member; Jan 24, 2007; 136 posts; 31 upvotes; Toronto

Feb 1st, 2016 1:43 pm

Thanks! I will definitely send him an email. I don't similar his use of text messaging... I'm going to come across if I can consign our thread of texts.

February 1st, 2016 1:44 pm

realtorhome: Sr. Fellow member; May 3, 2013; 685 posts; 280 upvotes; Toronto

February 1st, 2016 ane:44 pm

The landlord is unappreciative that you allowed those unannounced visits. From the sound of information technology, it'south all normal wearable-and-tear, except for the stained cupboard. Even that, really depends how large the stain is and if it's permanent (in my opinion). There'southward no definition of clothing-and-tear, how would 1 even start to ascertain that for it to become police?

February 1st, 2016 2:14 pm

arkroyal: Deal Addict; Apr 19, 2014; 1042 posts; 991 upvotes

February 1st, 2016 two:14 pm

licenced wrote: ↑ If he tries the courtroom road he'll probable make it appear worse than he described in the email which you lot of class tin can them produce.

Unless the landlord has photos of the unit before 'ilovetrouble' moved in, 'ilovetrouble' can merely claim that the unit'southward motion in condition was the same equally when he left information technology. If the landlord tries to take his claim to court, the judge will tear the landlord a new one for wasting everyone's time with such nonsense and will recommend the landlord find a new hobby.

Feb 1st, 2016 2:29 pm

ilovetrouble [OP]: Jr. Member; January 24, 2007; 136 posts; 31 upvotes; Toronto

February 1st, 2016 2:29 pm

Thank you.

I kept a tape of all of the unannounced visits which will be useful.

I did call the landlord/tenant hotline in Ontario, and they told me that unless I trashed the place (which I didn't)... that this is non enforceable by the deed (as others have said on this thread). They would have to have me to small claims court.

Feb 1st, 2016 2:32 pm

ilovetrouble [OP]: Jr. Member; January 24, 2007; 136 posts; 31 upvotes; Toronto

Feb 1st, 2016 2:32 pm

I'm not sure if they have before photos.

I'm an ethical person, and feel similar they are totally taking advantage of me. He'south now saying the entire place has to be cleaned which is so not true. I even offered (I think I shouldn't have) to send my cleaning lady who charges $66 for a full clean (which they don't need), and so probably half that. They said they want someone today. Ok, good luck with that!

Feb 1st, 2016 2:43 pm

BananaHunter: Deal Fanatic; Sep 23, 2007; 5157 posts; 1273 upvotes

February 1st, 2016 two:43 pm

Yup. Landlord is fishing and hoping y'all pay. In general, landlords will clean in betwixt tenants. Cleaning and damages are different things. None of the things y'all described audio like real damage.

HOWEVER, if you concord to pay the cleaning, there's nothing illegal about it. There's a difference between "aberrant" and illegal.

"The landlord agrees to professionally paint and clean the premises prior to occupancy. The tenant shall leave the place in the same status of neatness and cleanliness at death of lease equally time of occupancy salve for normal wear and tear. Otherwise a cleaning charge of $150 shall be payable past the tenant".

Of course, in that location's no clear cut definition of normal article of clothing and tear. But I think any reasonable person would concur (based on your description) that yous've left it reasonably clean. And of course, without pictures I can't exist sure of this. In general a clause like the in a higher place is unenforceable by law anyways. It'due south too hard to prove "normal". From my experience, some people are incredibly picky, to an unreasonable degree.

In general I encourage people to solve things diplomatically than to utilise the constabulary. Y'all don't need the police to help you resolve this issue. The $150 cleaning clause was written in proficient faith when you sign the contract. If you felt you've washed your part, and so only say so. This is plenty justification for non paying. Next fourth dimension take pictures of the place before yous go out to show that it was left in good condition.

Feb 1st, 2016 2:54 pm

Cheapo-Findo: Deal Guru; Mar nine, 2007; 14459 posts; 10070 upvotes; Retrieve of the Childre…

Feb 1st, 2016 2:54 pm

Let's see those twenty photos so we can judge. Thanks!

February 1st, 2016 4:00 pm

rob444: Deal Addict; Jan two, 2012; 4194 posts; 2160 upvotes; Toronto

Feb 1st, 2016 4:00 pm

What's the price these days to file a case in small claims courtroom? Plus the fourth dimension and try that's required to actually go to courtroom to do all this. Equally I said, across fishing and putting pressure on you to pay, no sane person would have it to court since it's not worth the $125. Yous could probably just state you left the unit in an adequate condition, say you aren't paying, and tell them not to contact you anymore.

Feb 1st, 2016 4:42 pm

Chickinvic: Deal Fanatic; Dec 27, 2009; 7590 posts; 4992 upvotes; Victoria, BC

Feb 1st, 2016 4:42 pm

The landlord sounds similar a majestic ass. I wouldn't keep giving them the time of solar day. Tell him to go pound sand. Luckily you aren't in BC. In BC you are stuck and they almost ever rip you off because they just withhold it from your damage eolith (there is no terminal month rent paid in BC, you pay a damage eolith of 1/ii calendar month rent at that place and don't get it back until after you move out and the landlord has "inspected" it). I've yet to move out of a place and become my full harm deposit back (and aye, I always clean and don't damage the place).

Feb 1st, 2016 6:31 pm

#xvi

licenced: Deal Fanatic; Jul iii, 2011; 6500 posts; 3738 upvotes; Thornhill

Feb 1st, 2016 half-dozen:31 pm

BananaHunter wrote: ↑All the same, if you agree to pay the cleaning, in that location'due south null illegal about it. At that place's a divergence between "abnormal" and illegal.

"The landlord agrees to professionally pigment and clean the premises prior to occupancy. The tenant shall go out the place in the same condition of neatness and cleanliness at expiry of charter as fourth dimension of occupancy save for normal habiliment and tear. Otherwise a cleaning accuse of $150 shall be payable by the tenant".

This isn't correct. The landlord cannot attempt to charge or collect annihilation other than lawful rent and key deposits. The tenant agreeing with aforementioned doesn't sidestep the law because at that place is no opting out of something alleged unlawful. The clause becomes void and unenforceable.

Feb 1st, 2016 7:01 pm

zzzz24: Bargain Addict; Nov two, 2011; 2802 posts; 1380 upvotes

Feb 1st, 2016 vii:01 pm

I wouldn't pay it. Crumbs? Lather in the sink? A corner with some dust? lol.

February 1st, 2016 11:41 pm

realtorhome: Sr. Fellow member; May 3, 2013; 685 posts; 280 upvotes; Toronto

February 1st, 2016 11:41 pm

licenced wrote: ↑This isn't correct. The landlord cannot endeavor to charge or collect anything other than lawful rent and key deposits. The tenant agreeing with aforementioned doesn't sidestep the constabulary because there is no opting out of something declared unlawful. The clause becomes void and unenforceable.

Landlord is immune to accuse a cleaning fee for damages. What is not allowed is security deposit nerveless upfront.

February second, 2016 12:34 am

licenced: Deal Fanatic; Jul 3, 2011; 6500 posts; 3738 upvotes; Thornhill

Feb 2d, 2016 12:34 am

realtorhome wrote: ↑Landlord is immune to charge a cleaning fee for damages. What is not allowed is security eolith nerveless upfront.

1 of the many things that is not understood within the industry. The fee is illegal.

The simply fees a landlord may collect without the authorisation of a Tribunal or court is the outset, last month'south rent and key eolith. They are expressly forbidden from collecting annihilation else which means any clause to that result is void

Additional charges prohibited

134. (ane) Unless otherwise prescribed, no landlord shall, direct or indirectly, with respect to any rental unit,
(a) collect or require or attempt to collect or crave from a tenant or prospective tenant of the rental unit a fee, premium, commission, bonus, penalty, key deposit or other like corporeality of money whether or non the money is refundable;
(b) crave or attempt to require a tenant or prospective tenant to pay any consideration for goods or services as a condition for granting the tenancy or continuing to permit occupancy of a rental unit of measurement if that consideration is in addition to the rent the tenant is lawfully required to pay to the landlord; or

CM (the 'Tenant') applied for an order determining that PD Of AM (the 'Landlord') or the Landlord's amanuensis harassed, obstructed, coerced, threatened or interfered with her, entered the rental unit illegally and substantially interfered with the reasonable enjoyment of the rental unit or residential complex past the Tenant or by a member of her household…

CM paid April 2012 rent to the Landlord. The Landlord is also in possession of a $580.00 concluding month rent deposit and a $200.00cleaning fee (illegal). Both deposits must exist returned to the Tenant…

It is ordered that:
On or before April 30, 2012, the Landlord shall pay $780.00 to the Tenant.
https://world wide web.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doctor/ ... ultIndex=four

Just to be sure there is no confusion, I'm calculation this i:

[5] The written tenancy agreement contains provisions that are contrary to the Residential Tenancies Human activity, 2006 (the 'Human activity') and are therefore not enforceable. In particular, the late fees proposed in paragraph 1 are illegal charges that contravene section 134 of the Act. Also, the security/cleaning deposit in paragraph 2 is an illegal charge that contravenes department 105 of the Act. The inclusion of illegal provisions in the tenancy agreement suggests to me that the Landlord is unaware of his obligations under the Act.
https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/doc/ ... ultIndex=5

February second, 2016 12:43 am

BananaHunter: Deal Fanatic; Sep 23, 2007; 5157 posts; 1273 upvotes

February 2d, 2016 12:43 am

licenced wrote: ↑This isn't correct. The landlord cannot attempt to charge or collect anything other than lawful rent and key deposits. The tenant like-minded with same doesn't sidestep the law because there is no opting out of something alleged unlawful. The clause becomes void and unenforceable.

You lot are technically correct just practically very incorrect. A contract is ultimately a certificate of trust that you will fulfill your duty. If the tenant was never willing to pay up $150 for cleaning, he should never accept signed off on the agreement with such a clause. The "RIGHT" thing to practice is to ask yourself "Did I fulfill my duty as a tenant as per the terms agreed?". "Yes I've cleaned information technology upward to a reasonable standard. Case closed". To me, it is ethically wrong to concord to a clause with no intention of fulfilling it. People perform tasks based on mere handshakes and verbal agreements all the fourth dimension, every day. On a applied level the law MUST come 2d to a basic sense of trust. For case, yous would be a total dick if during negotiations you promised to pay two months accelerate in substitution for a lower monthly rent, and so back peddle on the two months advance because "it is illegal".

Now of course, based on OP's details, the landlord is just being picky. And since nobody is going to take a $150 case to court, the police force IS irrelevant. Lots of laws are made irrelevant every day for practical reason. Did the law always put a stop on prostitution or underage drinking? Things volition ALWAYS happen as long every bit two parties hold to something.